On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Sarah wrote:
Dear, fabulous, wonderful PeaceBang:
I have written to you a few times in the past (as a layperson marrying friends, speaking on Christmas, scarf styles…), but this is my very first time writing you that I am actually in seminary. Huzzah! …Anyway, the reason I’m writing is that I start CPE this summer. I’ll be taking the T and hiking up a hill to work at ___Hospital for 40+ hours a week. I’ve read (and nearly memorized) your CPE post from the archives. I’ve been hunting for my CPE uniform for a while now, and I just got my first outfit assembled; my question is whether I’ve hit the mark or not.
I’ve attached three photos. Yes, those are my black Danskos, and I’ll probably retire them after this summer. Comfort and flexibility are a top priority, and I actually like Danskos for everyday wear, so they will be my workhorse shoes this summer. I have the drape jacket in both black and dark gray, and I’ll swap out other shells,(nice) tees, blouses, etc. My biggest question is the trousers. These are from the JJill Wearever collection (http://www.jjill.com/jjillonline/product/itempage.aspx?item=AI086U&PFID) and are comfortable, classic, machine-washable, and cut well. I like them, but I’m worried that they’re not tailored enough. I have (ahem) generously feminine curves, which can be a blessing and a curse, and while I don’t want to hide my body under giant swampy layers, I also really don’t want to be poorly dressed for chaplaincy. So basically, I’m asking the eternal fashion question: do these pants make my butt look big?
Thanks for your guidance and advice, as always.
Best,
-Sarah
[Click on the images to enlarge]
On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:31 PM, PeaceBang wrote:
Dear fabulous, wonderful Sarah,
How great to hear from you!! CPE at [Hospital X], huh? Awesome! Lots of hip and knee transplants…
Okay, truth on the trousers: they’re too much like yoga pants, too fitted in butt and crotch to be appropriate for ministry work. You’ve really got to stick with a button-and-fly trouser for this setting, and for the office as well if you’re going to be wearing such form-fitting tops as you have in this photo. This is too much like athletic wear. In fact, sorry to say, the shirt is, too.
You need something with a bit of a more generous cut, and this is an issue with your generation, I’m afraid. Flimsy fabrics in light colors clinging too closely to your curves. See the light fabric pulling across your bust? It doesn’t fit. We shouldn’t see it pulling across your butt, either, unless it’s a dark color. It’s like an arrow pointing to the tushie.
See if you can find a nice rayon/spandex pair of pants. A shirt in a more substantial cotton (with a touch of spandex) will also do you well.
May I PLEASE post this on BTFM? It would be a world of help to other pigeons!! There really is a problem with young women having a hard time figuring out the tricky balance between “I feel like I’m swimming in this” and “this is so tight and thin you can see my thong strap through it.”
It doesn’t help that clothes are so badly made these days. What make is the shirt and jacket? xoxo PB
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Sarah wrote:
Yep, elective surgeries… I’m secretly hoping for a member of the Celtics to need a little repair (kidding, kidding). I’m actually looking forward to the opportunity to see patients more than once, to grow a pastoral relationship. It’s going to be quite an experience.
That is very much what I figured about the pants!! Boot cut is a great cut for traditional fabrics, but in that fabric, it was just a liiiiittle too yoga-ish. The trousers and the shirt are both going back, actually!! I was testing sizes on the top, and that one was a wee bit too small. I was drawn to the light color from your CPE post about soothing colors, but the fit wasn’t right.
One of the perils of being generously endowed (ahem) is learning what it is a good fit, and what isn’t. It’s also difficult to find button-front blouses that are appropriate! Ahh, the challenge of a feminine form with traditionally masculine professional attire.
I do have to defend the “jacket”– it’s a purposefully unstructured style that’s basically a drape cardigan with a collar; I was drawn to it because it had a professional finish but a more approachable cardigan style. My mother helped me pick it out (also from JJill!), and since she has a BFA in fashion design, I trust her when it comes to fit and structure. She’s my BEST shopping buddy! She always tells me if something just doesn’t fit.
Yes, please feel free to post this! I’ll send you my improved CPE uniform as it comes together, as a compare-and-contrast exercise. I agree, it’s difficult to figure out that fine line between youthful and avoiding frump versus just plain inappropriate. I must say, we’re not TRYING to be inappropriate… It’s just a combination of limited financial means, social style commentary (what is marketed to us) and personal struggle. That last one is tricky– I find myself reflecting on my theological development in relation to my personal development; how am I evolving as a person, a person of faith, as a leader, as a future minister? How am I changing, inside and out? My personality and character is changing, and that is eventually reflected in my outward appearance… but I have tattoos and piercings, and I’m creating a coherent person as I go through this process. Sometimes we mistakenly vy on the young side, as I’m sure some older seminarians might vy on the frump side. Seminary isn’t just learning about Tertullian and hymnody and the book of Exodus; it’s about shaping our pastoral identity.
Thanks for your advice! I’ll send you any improvements to my CPE uniform.
With gratitude,
-Sarah
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 1:53 PM, PB wrote:
The jacket’s good!! the jacket’s good! And shut up about your smoking hot bod. Like I feel sorry for you. xox P.S. Shine up those shoes, girl.
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Sarah wrote:
Whew! I have it in a charcoal and black; at the very least, that’s good.
Aahahaahah, fine, fine, I cry uncle!!! What, my hourglass figure is just such a PAIN. 😉 Nah, it’s more my complete dislike of searching for trousers. And my budget, too. If only I had a CPE-uniform fund… or a seminary wardrobe fund… or a boot fund… We can dream, right?Dear PB,
Here is take two on the trousers for CPE; these are a soft, summerweight twill, much more tailored, and fit me well. They have some stretch, so I also anticipate that these will become a little looser as I wear them. You can still see my figure, but they aren’t yoga-pants or sausage-encasing tight. They aren’t the best quality pair of trousers ever, but they fit in my budget and I think they are suitable.
And yes, the top is pulling; I’m still trying to find nice blouses. Most of my button front blouses have shrunk, and having a generous chest makes finding things that fit a real pain… Why can’t they make clothing for women shaped like, well, women?? If I went any sizes larger in shirts, they would most often fit my chest, but not only be swimming on me at the waist, but horribly misshapen in the shoulders/arms! I think my birthday request this year will be “good quality button front blouses that fit properly.”
Okay, enough kvetching about clothes, and more “World History of Christianity” reading. Hope you are having a lovely weekend!
Thanks,
-Sarah
WASN’T THAT SO MUCH FUN, PIGEONS?
That’s how we do it here at BTFM. You write to me, I immediately get over-involved in your life, we consult, and then you go on your way feeling more confident about walking out the door looking your ministerial best.
You send me kisses, or name your dog after me, or buy me something from my Amazon.com Wish List, or drop a tip into my bucket via PayPal (the handy link is at the top of the blog masthead). Love offerings are most welcome right now as I am looking a monster car repair bill in the eye. Isn’t it just the worst when a ten year old buggy with 116,000 miles on it needs over $1000 worth of repairs? O, Lord, smite thy Honda manufacturers who didst put bum compressors in the 2002 CR-V models!
Sarah,
Have you been fitted professionally and recently to make sure you are wearing the right size bra? Just saying: I’m hourglassy too, and it’s easier to find shirts that fit and look good when my bra does, too. Saves money in the long run.
Other tricks: For the button-down that almost fits, use fashion tape or a straight pin to help avoid gapping between buttons. Make sure knit shirts’ necklines aren’t too high or too low.
Every shopping trip, try on something that you’d never try on, something you never think will work. This is how you learn what styles look good on you.
Look for shirts that have “princess seams” or “darts” or “shaping” to help find something that fits through the bust and then nips in a bit at the waist. (Like this Eddie Bauer shirt: http://tinyurl.com/7nb3ou4)
I completely agree with Natasha about getting fitted for a proper (yes, they are ugly) bra. Your back and shoulders and other parts will thank you.
Here is the truth about button down tops. You are going to have to take the darts in some more. If you are even a little bit competent with a sewing machine and seam ripper, you can do this yourself.
If not, the tailor at your local dry cleaner can do it for perhaps 10 – 20 dollars. So, if you buy lovely blouses that do not gap at the midline from the Goodwill, tis no different than a nice sale price.
Happy summer CPE, Sarah.
Excellent choices in clothes. I did my CPE at that same hospital. I ended up splurging on three tailored traditional business-like suits (black, grey, and a soft tan with white stripes) and a bunch of cheap thick brightly colored t-shirts. This worked for me. Near the end of summer I went and got fitted for a bra and found out that I’d been wearing the completely wrong size. My new bras changed my life! As a tattooed and pierced person I feel it is important to “over compensate” in my clothes when dressing for professional situations. (I put over compensate in quotes because that isn’t quite what I mean and I’m still working out my professional minister look.)
I also recommend biting the bullet, buying the larger size and having the blouse tailored down to fit. And getting the right bra. And they don’t have to be ugly!
I also recommend pants from Ann Taylor (the curvey fit). I’m pretty sure they have an outlet store down at Wrenthem, which is not far if you are within the range of the T!
As the recipient of (I believe) the very first CPE advice post back in the summer of 2006, I feel so happy that people are still reading it and that I wrote in for advice! It served me well then and continues to do so now.
About those JJill Wearever pieces, this confirms what I had suspected about the pants. It’s really too bad, but that modal, stretchy fabric just does not work on me either for pants or skirts. I need structure down below! And I have that same jacket and it is indeed a great light three-season piece.
Sarah, for structured, more substantial pants, I have had great luck with Eddie Bauer (also where I got my great suits). Order several styles and sizes, and return everything that doesn’t fit.
Also, I believe there’s still a Van Heusen outlet at Wrentham, and I once hit the absolute motherlode with their pants. I bought something like 6 pairs…they were a perfect fit right off the shelf, and came in lots of classic colors/menswear patterns. Sadly, those pants are all two sizes too small for me at the moment…but I will wear them again, oh yes, I will!
I highly recommend JC Penney for inexpensive, professional looking trousers that last for-evah! I get all of my work pants there. I doubt I’ve paid more than $20 for any pair. They have several different fits, they all come in petite/regular/long lengths, and best of all are machine washable (I hang them to dry). Once you find a fit that you like (mine is Modern Fit), you can order from their website and have loads more options than what’s generally in the store. I buy the long length and have them hemmed (regular is just a teensy bit short for me). The pants I am currently wearing at the moment are at least 3 years old and seriously look as good as the day I bought them.
Oh that was just so much fun! I remember doing a bit of a spree prior to CPE last summer and swearing to myself I would no long buy clothes at Target or Old Navy until I had enough professional looking wear. It is sort-of working. Thanks for the great read and great reminders ladies!
@Gina, JC Penny-great tip. Hadn’t thought about it and we can all feel good about their LGBT friendly position!
Another vote for double sided body tape. I have a lot of shirts that fit, as long as I have the tape stopping any gaping between the buttons.
Here’s my advise, at the risk of being redundant:
Go to Penneys or a thrift store and buy five pairs of neutral pants (two black, a grey, a brown and maybe a gray with a print). woven not knit. Stretch is fine but not too tight.
three or four nice knit shirts (neutral flattering colors, not tight, short sleeves or 3/4 sleeves, not too slinky) Don’t get big prints because you will grow tired of them.
a couple of cardigans and maybe a fleece in a dark neutral like grey (gasp, I know, but hospitals are cold
a couple of button up blouses in neutrals or small stripes or prints (thrifts stores are great for this)
Some version of “work jammies” for when you are overnight: a travel bag of your favorite products to keep packed so you don’t get there and realize you need something.
a blazer or two for presentations, (THRIFT STORE) that fit well or alter to fit. If you like skirts maybe two, one to match a blazer and another that is a small print that coordinates
If you are a dress person, a couple of not to short knit dresses are nice ( but keep in mind the no bare leg rule)
IRON YOUR SHIRT (this is a huge issue for clergy types and seminarians–if you aren’t going to iron it and it needs ironing, don’t buy it. non shiny synthetics are your friend….)
a couple pair of flats, keeping in mind 12-24 hour days and the OSHA requirement for socks/stockings. A pair of black pumps to go with the skirts
a decent bag
Pearl studs, a nice looking watch, a nice looking necklace, maybe a couple of scarfs. grown up looking but maybe not expensive.
Two good bras (get fitted for one and get a facsimile at a cheaper store if need be). eight pairs of underwear that fit you exactly and don’t ride up.
think “garanimals for adults”.
tinted moisturizer with sunscreen, blush, power, mascara, eye liner, lip gloss. A hair cut that is flattering but not too trendy or severe hard to deal with or maintain.
Glasses you like because even if you wear contacts, you won’t want to at four in the morning.
Change clothes when you get home and wash your work clothes carefully once a week and hang stuff to dry.
this will get you though your next year of seminary, interviews, and beginning of parish life and beyond and it won’t cost a fortune. (I figured this out for my CPE residency but I wish someone had told me. this is nothing new to folks who read this lovely blog.)
I think this is a wonderful commentary on chaplain’s dress being sculpted by the environment you are plunged into as a student. Oh the horror! The worst crime was students wearing hoodies. But don’t you dare wear a shiny suit.