So I’m in the receiving line after the service yesterday and one of my dearest elder female congregants pats me on the side. “You’ve got some extra here.” Now, I KNOW I’ve gained back some weight. I just purchased a digital scale yesterday so I can face the truth of exact numbers. Ick. I SAID from the pulpit last weekend (my first time back in church after a 5-month sabbatical) that one of the top things people on my travels wanted to know when I met them was, “Would you like something to eat?” and that my answer was always “Yes, please!”
I SAID last weekend that every pound the congregation saw on me was happily earned around the table with new friends and neighbors from many nations.
Which is to say, I thought I had that all covered. If anyone wanted to tssk about my increased plumposity (I lost 30 lbs. last year on Weight Watchers), they would know that I was aware of it and had intentionally enjoyed eating as a major activity while on sabbatical.
Keeping my good humor, I said to my own personal weight watcher, “There certainly is… I ate my way through Europe!” To which she replied, a bit sternly, “Time to return to an AMERICAN DIET.”
Which, of course, compared to the European diet is sheer garbage, but she knows that. What she means is “Stop eating like you’re on vacation.”
I know what I plan to do about this exchange. What would you do?
Just to start off the conversation, I have said before on this blog that whether ministers like it or not, our bodies are a legitimate topic of consideration for our parishioners. They are not fooled by the bunk about the external bearing no relationship to the internal and ethereal aspects of our being. They know that our bodies are our vehicles of service to the Church and the community, and therefore have an investment in our health and self-care. I have said before on this blog that self-righteous indignation about comments is generally non-productive, and that when we find ourselves having a defensive reaction (unless the comment is sexist, obviously boundary or privacy-violating or mean-spirited), we should hash out our feelings with a colleague or spiritual director before we pounce on the parishioner.
I have said on this blog before that I am sincerely convinced that most comments about our appearance from parishioners are truly meant as pleasantries similar to comments on the weather, and are not worth getting worked up about. I believe that if we are hyper-sensitive to every comment about our outward appearance, we will dull our instincts for those rare occasions when the comments really do convey an agenda or a destructive intent.
Discuss!
Really? Really? Wow. I am not a pastor. I cannot imagine saying and/or doing that to a pastor. Or to anyone else I can think of, really.
So perhaps there are differences here that are coming from…the time in which I’ve lived, as well as from age itself.
I will assume that congregant would have behaved the same way with a male pastor, which leads me to…I guess not really having anything to say. I appreciate your read of the situation here. It’s a good experience to post for the sake of learning from. I’m just flummoxed.
Hmmm. I find myself making connections to an experience I had a week or so ago. I had just given the benediction at the High School Baccalaureate service–very nice event, held at the RC church in town. And as I was waiting to take my leave–fully vested, I might add–a Deluxebury matron came up to me, reached for my face, pinched my cheek, and said, “Ooo, you did SUCH a nice job!”
Now, I’m 60 years old, folks. I can’t remember the last time somebody pinched my cheek, and I said so. “Oh, that was kind of forward, wasn’t it?” she said. “Yes, it was!” I replied.
The person I was standing with said later, “Maybe she meant it as a compliment.” I don’t think so. I certainly didn’t experience it as a compliment. In fact I felt thoroughly dissed, as a woman and as a clergywoman.
Now, these events are very different. But like chaidrinkingfool, I have to wonder if your congregant would even THINK of doing the same thing to a male pastor. Or if they would ever pull such a thing in the workplace.
To me it qualifies as a legitimate boundary trespass. Self-righteous indignation is optional.
I don’t know about this…..
I do think that appearance is a legit matter of discussion (although I think that congregants take that wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too far and become very knit-picky really fast). However unless you have a rapid or dramatic weight gain or weight loss, as far as I’m concerned, weight (like intimate relationships) should be off limits.
And I must say that I’m more than a little offended that your parishoner felt the need to bring up something that you had already discussed. Makes me wonder if she would have done that with a male pastor.
(sorry about this rant…I just took a Women In Ministry class so these issues are up front in my mind)
I would simply say, ‘Thank you for your concern’ and move to the next hand to shake.
Right now I’ve got a houseguest, a friend who is a good person but with a few less social skills than he might have, especially niceties with women. When I approached him at the train the other day, he said, ‘I thought it was you, but the hair is really GREY.’
Well, you know what? Yes, it’s gone greyer than it had. I had to stop colouring when I got Bell’s Palsy and didn’t want chemicals or fumes any closer to my non-blinking eye than absolutely necessary. So I’m six months since my last colour, and as I was prematurely grey at 38 (which is 10 years ago), I now have about 4″ of grey roots.
I’ve decided to grow it out and be one of those chic salt-and-pepper European ladies who look sleei as they move confidently into maturity.
My actual boyfriend likes it…
Don’t let the comments get to you. You know what you look like. You know what, if anything, you are going to do about it. It’s nobody else’s business!
Hmmm. If it were me in your situation I would (hopefully!) realize that the fact that I had been so open about the weight gain from the pulpit created the atmosphere that leads to parishioners feeling free to speak to me about my weight. Although I am not a minister (but, believe me I gain so much wisdom here as I forge down my own windy twisty road)I feel that when my minister speaks from the pulpit she is not talking at me but with me – a conversation. In conversations there are responses.
BUT, that being said, I would still have to find a way to respond to the parishioner. Not because she broached the subject of my weight – but because of HOW she did that: a bit condescending and shaming. Responding to a parishioner is soooooo different than responding to say a co-worker, client or even a close friend. The relationship dynamics are complicated to say the least! Would it be appropriate to let her know her comments stung a bit while still letting her know you hold her dear and value her concern? [That’s what I’m thinkin. Thanks. – PB]
Well… this weekend… I have a speech defect and got stuck in a cluttering spell during my sermon, and then got an allergy attack. I ended up in an oratorical disaster. I actually stopped the sermon, sent my acolyte for some water, apologized to the congregation, and started the whole page over.
Afterwards, one congregant wanted details as to what I was taking for my allergies (I’m allergic to the mold here).
I didn’t see it as improper, since I did invite them into that space during the sermon as I stopped, drank, and apologized. If she had made comments unprompted, it would have been different.
That being said, that’s allergies, and you are talking weight. I’m very sensitive about my weight. You showed remarkable restraint. I thought about how I ate and how I felt when I slimmer. At the moment (carrying a few pounds of extra pudge), I’m trying a summer of vegetarian eating, drinking more healthful options, and rewarding myself with the promise of a century ride in Vermont. But I love tofu, so it’s not too terrible. What I should do is join a club where you get feedback (like WW), but I have never heard of one that accommodates vegetarians who like green living and seasonal eating. So I fear I am on my own.
The above, by the way, is to say that I would totally not think of confronting or conversing with my parishoner. I would internalize her comments, blame myself, feel horrible, and probably cry while thinking up a PLAN OF ACTION. But I’m a 7 on the Enneagram. Confronting and conversing and not crying is probably a better reaction.
Hi PB –
The best response I can think of is best given in the moment: “Ouch.” Said with a slight smile, or not. After the fact, I’d be concerned about making a big deal about something, but if I found it getting in my way, I would tell her that it hurt my feelings. I don’t know how well people, especially women of a certain vintage, will get the professional boundaries thing. But hurt feelings should be clear to anyone. And I think we are allowed to have them and express them. Said straightforwardly, without asking people to take care of you, I think it’s just fine.
I did have a parishioner once say he and his wife were speculating as to whether or not I was pregnant – just looking at me, & the outline in my (open) robe, it looked like I was. I must have given a fairly withering glance, because I got a note of apology that week.
About a year ago, while visiting a very elderly (and slightly confused) member of my parish, she stared straight at my abdomen and said: “Oh, that’s a lot to cover”.
At the time, I laughed and said: “Yes, it certainly is”.
But never since then have I worn that skirt.
Wow.
I would never make a comment about my pastor’s body. Commenting on someone’s weight is pretty rude, especially when that person is in a leadership position.
I find myself agreeing that:
you invited the comment by talking about eating from the pulpit. AND
the commenter wasn’t being very respectful.
I’d have to say something to her, like, “My reaction to your comment about my weight caused me to do some real thinking. And while I appreciate your loving concern, I gotta tell you, I don’t want you to do that again. It hurt. Thanks.”
Charlotte, I’m curious why commenting on the weight of someone in a subordinant position would be less rude?
And yes, I agree both that mentioning it during the sermon invites some level of conversation, and that a good “ouch” would be an appropriate response.
This is an interesting discussion to me. I am not a minister, but I am the child of one and about the be the spouse of one. Yes, I agree that a minister giving a sermon about a personal topic invites a certain amount of discussion. Discussion, to me, is “Thank you for sharing, it helps me with my struggle” or “I have a great recipie for a Kung Pao Tofu, would you like it?” NOT patting my side and calling me fat. I am always appalled at how little tact and grace some people have, especially with the physical “patting” added in. I have to completely disagree here with the people that have implied that it is at least somewhat PB’s fault for bringing it up. It is abundantly clear that PB was a bit self-conscious which was (I would guess) one of the primary reasons she brought it up in the first place. If someone said something like that to my wife, I’m not sure I’d be able to keep my jaw from hitting the floor. I’m going to have to remind myself as a future ministerial spouse that my job is to be seen and not heard (and to of course dress well, right, PB?)
I was feeling a bit low and thought I would come read your blog as it always perks me up. Your story reminds me of a time that one of our sweet little old ladies was having a chat at coffee hour.
I am almost six feet tall and she was a little bit of a thing. She pulled me close and I bent down to hear her and she asked me if I had always been “fleshy”. I nearly died. I had never heard that expression but I got the message. I reassured her that I had always been that way. We had a great laugh in the office over it.
I had a mother who believed that a person should dress in clothes that fit no matter what their size and I think that is good advice.
Not a minster here. I think that was out of line. Do you know if she is the type of person to do this sort of thing often or was it maybe a one time slip up? There is a woman in our church who has made horribly rude comments to several of us while were were pregnant and it was very upsetting to the other women. If this was anymore than a one time slip up you might want to keep an eye on her in case she is going around hurting other folks.
It is always fascinating, and a little breath-taking, what comments/ conversations come up with this whole appearance thang isn’t it? Or the liberties that some folk feel they can take knowing that you have to be professional and gracious…?! Earlier in the year Ireland were playing Scotland in the rugby. The 10am service finished, I was standing at the door in junior clergy in training mode – and had not yet got my cassock – and this huge hulk of a guy came up bundled me up under his oxter [armpit to non-Scots!] and said ‘well we thought we’d come over and teach yous to play rugby.’ Wondering if he’d broken one of my ribs, I thought, yes, and you would not have done this had I been one of the male clergy… and then next thought was that I had to smile and be greacious and resist the urge just to knee him in the groin [in Christian love, of course].
Although you mentioned weight from the pulpit, I don’t think it was exactly an invite to people to be overwhelmingly rude PB!
By the by, am a recent convert to your blog – you’re awesome, I love it, thank you!! 🙂
I don’t think people should be allowed to pat you, whether you are the pastor or not. Of course they do. When people cross my personal space, I take a big step backward. Most people get that and back off… if they don’t then I figure they have problems reading body language and are a little socially inept and so I forgive them and tolerate it.
Just wanted to say that when I said the conversation about weight was begun at the pulpit I in no way place any kind of blame on PB – Opening up the subject of weight at the pulpit invites conversation about it BUT does give any one permission to be shaming or rude.
Food is important in almost all cultures. It connects people, expresses a life-STYLE.
It is part of our daily lives but also far more.
Therefore the bible is full of “food-stories”. And they are for good reason to be preached from the pulpit. (Reminds me that my sermon for next Sunday will be on the “great feast”).
And yes- we all must eat, and most of us enjoy eating.
But it is completely inappropriate to make comments on your pastor´s figure.
I am the sort of skinny type and it´s not fun to be told at almost every visit “come on- YOU can eat that. You´re so skinny anyway.”
(Yes-thank you I know that!)
Heh- my body is MY body and I do not want my parishioners to comment on it!
Personally I am sick of it and I start telling people that they´re crossing my boundaries.
And- o wonder:
Most of them simply never thought about it and show complete understanding and excuse themselves.
Tell them about it.
I think you are right on, PB, about the body being a legitimate matter of concern to the congregation because it is the vehicle of service. When we get offended or defensive it is always more about us than the other person, I believe. I’ve been pinched and called a “big girl” by a skinny old bird (I say that now that I am more of a skinny old bird myself) and it hurt. But our communities are attached to us, invested in us, and they do suffer a bit when they have reason to question, for whatever reason, their security that we will be around and healthy and well with them for hopefully many more years to come. I don’t know if I’d have any particular reaction to this one comment. If it becomes a pattern with this person, or seems to become a general vibe from more than one person in the congregation, then maybe it’s something to address in some sort of way.
I am constantly amazed how many people think they can shame fat people into thinness. My current pastor, who is a sweet man, is teaching a series of lessons on the difference between guilt and shame. Too bad he doesn’t see that the comments he makes about overweight and obesity in the pulpit are a form of shaming–the prejudice is just too ingrained for him to have clarity.
I think your parishioner was just being clueless, and would likely let it go once. If it comes up again, high eyebrows are in order.
Maybe she was offering herself up as an accountability partner? I know that when I’m struggling with a particularly hard habit, it helps me to know that someone else that I care about is really “seeing” me. Maybe I think that I’ve curtailed some form of excess, but my accountability partner has a better grasp on reality that I do. I dunno…I think this ties into the discussion about how much we lean into our congregations for help with our own life struggles. Are we really free to look into the eyes of our congregations and say “I trust you. Help me on this journey?”
I would respond via phone call a few days later, with something like this. “Dearest Elder, the other day you commented on my weight as you were leaving church. I need to tell you that those comments hurt my feelings. I know that you are a caring woman, and I feel blessed to be cared by you. But I perceived those comments as neither caring nor helpful.”
And let the conversation go from there…
The part of this exchange that struck me was the phrase “elder female congregant”. My now 84 year old mother, as part of the aging process and subsequent descent into dementia, slowly lost over the last several years her social niceties. It was very subtle at first as she seemed “fine”, but occasional conversational forays into inappropriate areas were the first clue. Making personal comments about peoples bodies (to their face) was one of the signs her mental state was not as intact as we thought.
Telling my mother those comments were rude or hurtful only embarrassed her but of course couldn’t stop the reason behind her loss of control. I would just take it as information for dealing with this particular congregant and move on.
Like it or not, I find that parishioners in general feel more ‘free’ to comment on all manner of the pastor’s personal life (weight, marital status, clothing choice, hairstyle, whether or not you have/want children, etc.). I suspect this happens more to female pastors, for a variety of reasons. If I had a dime for every comment I’ve gotten about my curly hair during my 10 years in ordained ministry, I could retire right now.
Most of the time, I just ignore it. I find that sometimes the older generation feels a need to comment on that stuff, and it often feels like a grandmotherly/fatherly sort of thing – which is not okay, but my getting in a huff about it probably won’t make any difference anyway. When people have said truly rude things, I’ve responded with either 1.) a laugh and an exclamation of some surprise that they needed to comment or 2.) shocked silence (always a helpful response).
Was this parishioner rude? Heck, yeah. But I wouldn’t bother following up on it unless it’s a pattern.
Sorry; I appear not to have finished my first sentence above. I meant to say that parishioners feel more free to comment on the pastor’s personal life than they would on nearly any other person’s life. That alone is a whole discussion topic. I think it’s a sort of misplaced desire to help combined with a confusion between “being vulnerable to one another” and “keeping your mouth shut when it’s really not your business.”
I really need to think about this. Maybe I’m willing to give some credence to your statement that our bodies are legitimate topics of conversation as far as health-issues are concerned, but as I read this story it she’s being superficial and judgmental and is out of line.
You talking about your body from the pulpit isn’t an invitation for congregants to talk about you, but about themselves.
But that’s just me… and I’m not engaged in full-time parish leadership like you are.
It’s not just ministers. I’ve been at the church for 14 years now. I’ve been huge, slightly less huge, and slightly more huge. Nothing new. I’ve gotten to the point where comments about my looking thinner (usually a sign I have gained weight) are just as sensative to me as ones about where I look heavier.
I catch myself commenting about other people’s weight, and, if there is time, stop myself. I think the only way to handle this is by example. I’ve had perfect strangers of all ages, women and men, straight and gay… ask me about whether or not I was pregnant – I hope my responce was good enough to train them to hold their tongues in future, I usually say “No, I’m just fat… People as heavy as me usually can’t get pregnant and I’m too old to boot.” Am I mean? I hope so.
I know that people feel extra close with their Ministers like you are our best friends, but I guess it’s the price I pay for being friendly and approachable. Maybe that’s why I get this too.
It is rude. It has happened to me. It has also happened to my male colleagues–for them it’s either weight, or hair, or beard, or tie, or shoes. Rude people do not discriminate, apparently.
I used to laugh it off, but now, after 9 years in the same full-time and very busy call, through two pregnancies and the weight ups and downs to go with them, various hairstyles and various other “offenses” (too dark nailpolish, too bright nailpolish, hair too long, hair too short, shoes that were too racy, etc. etc.) I have a new tactic: silence and staring. Silence is the the most effective response by FAR; it makes Mr or Mrs Busybody as uncomfortable as you have just been made. Playing field leveled.
Ugh…I dunno. Those comments (and their delivery) seem awfully passive-aggressive to me. If there were real concerns about you, it seems to me that she would have taken you aside and gently inquired about your health; how you are feeling, etc.
I wouldn’t have felt comfortable joking with her, because my experience is that people who are free enough to make those kind of snarky comments (under the guise of “caring”) to their ministers are nagging and nitpicking their own families and friends about whatever…fill in the blank…weight issues, job issues, relationship issues, etc. Who wants to listen to that?
Amen to what HS said…use silence and staring. The parishioner’s rudeness is not caring.
I am struggling to think of a legitimate occasion to comment on someone’s body–nope can’t think of an appropriate time to make a comment about somebody else’s body (much less pat them!). This seems like a “teaching moment” for this congregant. It is not ok to talk to people like that.
Is this perhaps all about people who, for one reason or other, have poor self-definition, and don’t really know where they end and the next person begins? I’m sort of realizing that this may be the issue with the (male, platonic) friend I’ve had here since last week, and who leaves on Saturday.
I think a lot clicked for me on Tuesday evening when we stopped in the supermarket for a few items and used the self-checkout. I was using my debit card, and was visibly trying to shield the number while I was punching it in (it is not that I don’t trust him, it is that it’s just sort of rude to crowd someone’s space around their bank card). And when the screen came up ‘remove card’, HE pulled it out and handed it to me! I didn’t really want to make a scene with a 40 year old man that you NEVER touch someone’s bank card without their permission…
But I wonder if, between his extreme food-fuss, the boundary issues, etc, this doesn’t explain a great deal of why he is single and dateless at 40….and I have my own boundary issue bringing it up with him!
Wow. I’m digesting both what you went through and all the good reflections by folks.
A friend who is a UCC minister and psychologist just sent me this link from The Christian Century. It’s an article on ministers, criticism, and praise. Not directly about the issue you raise, which of course is more about the minister’s body and boundaries, but still pertinent to the conversation, I think. Or maybe it’s a new one, but for your other blog?
Re: patting the minister on various parts of her body — I’ve heard from pregnant friends that as soon as they start showing, perfect strangers feel entitled to come up to them and pat their belly. Drives them crazy. I’ve never been pregnant, but I have observed the phenomenon. Personally, I’d want to deck the person. Nonviolently and elegantly, of course.
I don’t care who you are or what you do, comments about a person’s weight are hurtful. If you can’t say something nice… [“…come over here and sit by me!!” – PB]
During a pastoral visit to a very elderly parishioner, she said “You must walk miles and miles in your job”
Well, yes, I agreed, I do.
She looked me up and down carefully before adding “It doesn’t help you lose any weight though, does it?”
Well, no, apparently not!
How funny that parishioners think it their obligation to help you with your weight/body image issues. Not funny in the sense – HA HA but funny ODD.
When my husband and I went to a church to minister…before he was even “on the clock” and we were actually moving in – a parishioner came over to the house to let my husband know he should not be wearing shorts in public. (It’s indecent you know….) WOW I thought. At that same church and the one we serve now, he and I have both been approached by the very well meaning folks who find it necessary to discuss our weight with us. There must be one in every congregation.
I appreciate the love and concern – but could you spend time focusing on how you might lessen the load of stress that comes with ministry rather than point out how I have personally dealt with the stress and critique me for it.