My dear and vigilante readers, we have had a cry of distress from the seminarian realm! S/he writes,
Hi PeaceBang,
I love your website! Your answer about CPE-wear gives me hope that you will answer another “student” question. I am doing field ed in a (UCC) church this fall, and have found out that I need to buy a robe for worship. I do not have the first idea what to buy, and am not getting a lot of info from other sources. There are a lot of styles out there and basically I do not want to make a $400 mistake (did I mention that I am a student?). Can you give me some pointers? Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated! Of course, I need to order it immediately in order to get it on time… Thanks!
Dear student,
Thank you for reaching out in your moment of pastoral panic! But not to worry, peach pie!
PeaceBang may get a lot of flack for this, but she firmly believes that there is absolutely NO reason for you to make an expensive purchase at this point in your ministerial training. PeaceBang is, in fact, disturbed by the number of seminarians who have not yet seen even a regional sub-committee to help them discern their fitness for the ordained ministry, but who are nevertheless buying themselves robes and stoles. This seems to PeaceBang to be putting the cart before the horse, ecclesiastically speaking, and is presumptuous at the very least. Call me old-fashioned, but until a congregation votes to ordain one to the ministry, why should any seminarian representing a congregational tradition own vestments? Being accepted into an M.Div program is not a green light to start designing and ordering one’s vestments. Just because we feel a call to the ordained ministry does not mean that that call will be validated by the rest of the world.
(Speaking of which, PeaceBang found to her horror an article she wrote 12 or so years ago in which she described herself as a minister. This before she had even started her M.Div program!! I’m not sure if this was a typo or editorial misunderstanding or I’m getting the years wrong or what, but it certainly illustrates that PeaceBang herself was prone to the jump-the-gun enthusiasm she now sternly warns others against. Learn from my ignorance, my doves! I knew so little of congregational polity back then).
But that’s not you, dear panicked student. You are further along in your preparation and have secured a field ed placement. Congratulations and mazel tov. What you may chose to do is to sweetly say to the teaching congregation, “I’m looking forward to ordering my first robe at graduation/ordination, as is customary. If the congregation thinks I should wear a pulpit gown during worship, I would be happy to, but that’s not in my budget right now. Perhaps the church, committed as it is to being a teaching congregation, would like to buy some to have for their student ministers to wear? Here’s a catalog I just happen to have handy.”
If they don’t bite (and they should), ask around. A simple choir robe is absolutely appropriate for your needs. Have it hemmed to your height and save the momentous decisions about your own “real” robe for later, when you’re ordained and are ready to make such an important investment (forgive the pun).
Lovely and wise comments as usual.
There are so many things like this that are unspoken parts of a culture that one bumps into accidentally, at times. A minister friend told me once that (at least in my region and tradition), a candidate for the ministry does not wear a stole until ordination. This is part of the tradition that doesn’t seem be written down anywhere. We were preparing to co-celebrate a liturgy together, and the timing of her comment saved me from worrying about something I needn’t worry about at this stage in my formation.
Thank you for generously dispensing such helpful information. Saving bucks and saving face. You are a blessing, PB!
I personally believe that if a congregation expects a seminarian or intern to wear a robe, there should either be a supply of basic, appropriate robes at hand, or the congregation should pony up the money.
I’m not sure about the issue of owning/buying a stole, or when it is considered appropriate. (Having just worn a stole for the first time today, I’ve got mixed feelings.)
That’s an interesting observation about calling yourself a minister. I’ve noticed that on the one hand we uplift the ministry of all believers, but then use “minister” as code for only those who are ordained clergy. Perhaps you were not clergy 12 years ago, but weren’t you still a minister? I’m torn about this issue, as well.
Except that there are some really ugly choir robes out there. And without getting into the question of choir dress, I’d see if there’s a retired minister out there who might loan your questing student a gown for the term of the field placement.
Or see if there’s a long-established church nearby (if not the site) that has a few things in the closet. My last pastorate had gowns from two prior ministers, one now dead. In my own internship, I wore a gown so old it had faded to grey and was much too sort (as I’m much too tall.) But all the interns wore it so there was nothing said.
Good heavens yes, dear seminarian, I mean good heavens no, do not buy yourself a robe. Your field placement should have a supply of robes. That’s why God made sacristies.
If your place of employ (or non-employ in the case of non-stipend field sites) won’t or can’t supply the proper vestment, borrow, borrow, borrow! My best source for this was my seminary “big sister,” by then an alumna.
Spend your money on food and a nice massage and books and taking a trip to see your Mama. Or your lover, or whomever you need to see. Fie on those places that won’t supply the seminarian with a robe. I’m with PeaceBang on this one.
I do suggest wearing a robe, though, however you can get it, if you are going to be in any kind of leadership role in a worship service. Having worked in a place that was sort of relaxed about robe wearing for the associate pastor, I cant tell you the hours I wasted standing in front of the closet wondering what I could wear that wouldn’t be too distracting/inappropriate/dowdy, etc….
And speaking of robes, I’ve been meaning to ask what you think of this site. Try to ignore that the robe on the front page is pink (PINK! what liturgical season is THAT? Whatever it is, sign me up!) and that there is usually some sort of overdone embroidery on the sleeve. I’m just looking at the shape, which seem kind of lovely to me but of course would like your opinion. Also, am wondering about the ethics of doing business with an organization that has more conservative theology than I do: http://brideofchristrobes.com/index.htm
Oh, and dont worry about the emails. But I’m sending this in teh comments, in hopes that it will actually reach you!
You are great, J.
juniper, I’ve got to say, this is an interesting site. that pink robe is beautiful, but please please PLEASE don’t try to light a chalice wearing it!!
as a former costume designer, I will say that the construction and design of these robes is gorgeous–really well done. I think that the key to “appropriateness” would be choice of color and fabric.
WR
Warning, long comment. Chaplain got to sleep late and has coffee now! Warning!
When I was in Seminary, we were expected to purchase our robes and have our ‘own set’. The logic was akin to buying our own books: use your seminarian discount and start building up your professional wardrobe and library little by little. I AM Episcopal, and we DO all wear the same things, so that does simplify things. No one bought stoles. People tend to give you those. Trust me! (Says the girl who now has 4 greens). Never underestimate the power of graduation presents!
Most robe places DO have a Seminarian discount: play that card big time.
Also, play the big-eyed “I’m a poor student” card: my parents were so excited about me having to buy vestments that they offered to buy my first cassock and surplice, and my senior mentor (who had just landed a sweet job) miraculously had a brand-new robe (an alb) just my size that she wanted to give to a good home. I didn’t have to buy any robes til Senior year. Of course, my seminary also had field ed scholarship money, so that helped a lot.
We had a Seminary-wide email, and it was very common to have students sending out emails asking to borrow vestments. People did according to their budgets, and the faculty at the field ed sites saw that it was good.
I still have that first alb, and even though I now have custom-mades, I still use that one- outdoors or when I travel since it packs the best. It’s also a great alb to lend to the poor seminarians who show up and need to borrow one…
Finally, and this one was unique to the cute chick: if you are petite, look around for a long black or white dress that buttons up the front: my very petite and adorable friend found a GREAT sleeveless black dress that buttoned up the front and was wrinkle-free and high necked. She got it in a tall and it hit her ankles. She wears it under surplices and we all beg her to tell us where she got her great custom cassock. I think she paid 40$ at an outlet store. I have yet to luck out like that.
When I was in field ed, I wore an old black choir robe. It’s what they had for students and it was fine. In some denominations, stoles are not considered appropriate until you’re ordained anyway, so pay attention to that.
If you’re bound and determined to buy a robe, I’d recommend getting one of the less expensive Women Spirit ones. I have a lovely heavy black robe that I prefer to wear, but bought a lightweight womenspirit robe for less than 200 that I wear when it’s too warm for the other one. If you got one of those, that would give you a backup lightweight robe, and you’d still be free to choose the robe you like best once you’re ready to be ordained.
The Bride of Christs site has some beautiful robes!
Dear all- yes. robes are expensive, especially on a student budget. Borrowing for a summer (or just the specific days you preach) works for some congregations. But for others, (those congregations who are still unsure about whether a woman CAN be called to the office of ordained ministry), or if you are short, petite, or just really young looking and wish to be seen with some modicum of authority- there are fairly cheap robes out there. I reccomend http://www.victoriousrobes.com- cheap, quick, and will ship anywhere quickly! Be well- Nancy
My goodness, if I waited till ordination to wear a robe, I’d be borrowing for more than six years. I’m in a part-time program, and have seen and passed the regional sub-committee on candidacy. For now, I’m borrowing, and often wearing nice street clothes to preach and lead worship in for my praxis congregation, but I’m borrowing robes for ordinations, and will definately be buying one before my internship. My understanding is that one doesn’t wear a stole with a robe before being ordained, but it seems to me that there are many situations that call for a robe before one is ordained, and, as ordination may take place after a paying position as a minister or ministerial consultant, I hope it’s not incorrect to wear the robe.
I think there’s something to be said for the philosophy that if the congregation is relating to you as a minister–student or not–you should be in the garb appropriate for a minister to wear. Our congregational polity doesn’t mean that ordination is the only mark of being in the role of a minister. Before being called or ordained, we are required to be sponsored by a congregation, we do ministerial internships in congregations that have to see us as ministers, we are invited to process in ordination and installation ceremonies as colleagues, and we are invited to guest preach in congregations that see us as ministers. Some of us were authorized by congregations to perform weddings long before we were called or ordained*. All of these are appropriate occasions on which to don a ministerial robe (and not a choir robe–they are different).
I do think that teaching congregations who want their interns to robe should have a supply of them handy. And yet, it is a good investment (no pun intended) to own a robe.
There are decent robes in the $200-350 range at Christian Supply Company. I don’t know if they have a student discount.
-Michael
*I actually think the bigger shame in our modern-day practice is that these two things–call and ordinatio–are so rarely linked anymore.
Marcia, I didn’t say one should wait until ordination to WEAR a robe, but to BUY a robe. I didn’t even say that it’s inappropriate to wear a robe, but cautioned against running out and purchasing vestments prematurely. And you’re right : none but the ordained should be wearing clerical stoles. I was responding to this particular student’s sense of panic and poverty.
Michael, I agree with you about the sad loss of relationship between call and ordination, but that’s a post for another time and place!
In my UCC congregation, nobody wears any robes of any sort. Whoever is preaching wears a stole, and sometimes a stole will be present at communion–it all depends upon who is presiding. It threw me off when I first came here, but I’ve adjusted quite well to the practice, and now when I visit someone else and see a robe I get thrown off! (The point = it makes it really easy for interns, seminarians, supply preachers, etc.)
Another option for purchasing a robe is http://www.cokesbury.com Cokesbury is a ministry of the United Methodist Church, so all their profits go back to the UMC minister’s retirement/pension fund (whatever it’s called). And yes, they give a great discount for seminarians. They also have semi-annual robe sales, so keep an eye out. I think I spent $250 on my $450 custom-made robe.
And I bought my robe while in seminary — got the seminarian discount and considered it an investment in my future, since I’m going to be wearing it for at least 20 years. I, too, have been in the ordination process for more than six years (it’s a dysfunctional process in my conference) and am not yet ordained… but I have been working in a church for the last four years, and I’ll be darned if I’m going to borrow somebody’s threadbare castoffs for that long!
Hmm. I realize it’s my low-church, Mountain Desert District humanist Unitarian roots showing — and I know that being male gives me a particular bias, too — but I find the robe frenzy in UU circles a bit off-putting. I never wore a robe to preach during my seminary years (Harvard, late ’90s), even in churches where clergy wear robes. A suit worked very well for me. I have worn borrowed Harvard M.Div. gowns when I’ve preached in Boston churches that prefer robed ministers, but only once I had earned the degree that the robe symbolizes.
(Admission: I always used to buy a new tie when I was invited to preach somewhere. That’s my own low-church stole option.)
Two limitations I’d put on UU seminarians and robes: You may not wear a stole until you’ve been ordained, even if everyone else in the chancel is wearing one. You may never wear an academic gown for a degree you yourself have not earned. That means no borrowing someone else’s Master of Divinity gown unless you have already earned that degree. Symbolism matters, and to wear a symbol whose meaning doesn’t apply to you is a species of fraudulence.
Can a woman minister wear an alb if she is not ordained? No stole, just an white “alb”.
I have lived and worked in 2 Districts, the PNWD & the PSWD.
When I reached Candidate status in the PNWD I began borrowing
various minister’s robes to wear for ordinations as is the custom
there for ministers and Candidates. There it is considered
appropriate to wear a stole only after your own ordination.
However, there were no stole police, so to say, so it happened
on occasion that someone who had graduated from seminary
chose to wear a stole given to them as part of their graduation.
A long standing tradition in the PNWD is for Peter Raible’s robe
to be passed on from one person being ordained to someone
in Candidate status. I was the lucky person one year, so I now
wear Peter Raible’s robe…until I myself am ordained and then I
pass it down. I will tell you it is an incredible honor to wear that
old black silk robe, tattered & repaired many times, worn by
some of our most venerated ministers who wore it before me!
When I left the church where I had worked for 11 years as the
religious educator, already in Candidate status, to begin my
Internship as a Hospital/Hospice chaplain, they gifted me a
gorgeous white robe from WomenSpirit. It really came in handy
when I officiated at over a dozen memorial services and several
weddings as well. However, I still do not wear a stole with it.
Here in the PSWD, I have found that Candidates are not always
formally invited to ordinations (as they were almost always in
the PNWD) and it appears here that it is left to the discrimination
of the person being ordained if Candidates may even process. I
will be honest and tell you that I was offended when a young
man who was being ordained here made it clear that while
Candidates could attend his ordination service they would not
be *allowed* to process, I found this offensive and amusing. I
have been in Candidate status since this young man was in High
School, a religious educator for 18 years, and as my mentor
Leon Hopper always said, “Hatched, matched, and dispatched”
more folks that this young whipper-snapper will in his first 10
years of ministry. But, hey that’s this old UU gal here speaking!
I am now serving my 2nd year as a half-time Consulting Minister
for a small congregation and I wear one of my robes only for
special occasions; weddings, memorial services, children’s
dedications and new member recognition services. This seems
just right for this congregation at this time. As my life has taken
many unexpected turns since I began my path to ministry, I will
be still attending seminary a couple more years before graduation and fellowshipping/ordination…however, it is ministry I’m doing.
I do lots of pulpit supply here, having now preached in at least
10 congregations and so far I have not been asked, or have I
chosen, to robe. If I were, and that was their custom, I would be
glad to oblige. I have officiated at dozens of weddings and
memorial services now in WA and CA and am glad to be able
to wear a robe for these occasions when it is requested.
By the time one enters Candidate status, IMHO, one has already
met a number of qualifications to be able to lead worship, to
officiate at special liturgical services and represent our church.
So, I feel it is perfectly acceptable and a real honor to be robed.
I look forward to the day when I will be given a stole at my own
ordination and pass down Peter Raible’s robe to someone else.